Vandaag het gesprek met Tarzan Kay.
Tarzan is conversion copywriter who specializes in launch copy. She also helps freelancers and service providers package up their magic and turn it into products that sell.
She calls herself the Empress of Email, and teaches other freelancers how to price their services, close high ticket packages and attract the best clients using her method, Celebrity Marketing.
We had a great conversation about creating your own blue ocean. How she got in front of the right audience by following a great course. Of course we talk a lot about how she increased her pricing. Why it is easier to sell a $ 3000 day than $ 35 dollar per hour.
I love how she is strict on the number of days she works for clients. She is really great at creating multiple income streams. Where the streams that makes money without investing extra time in each new client is growing steadily.
Enjoy the insights with Tarzan.
Seth Godin – Signaling
Tools of Titans – Tim Ferris
The Go-Giver – Bob Burg
Links uit de podcast
Erno: I am here today with a great Freelancer was carved out her piece of the market in a special way. And we can talk about all of that and welcome Tarzan Kay
Tarzan: Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.
Erno: So you live in..
Tarzan: I live in Canada quite close to Niagara Falls.
Erno: That’s that’s all familiar to us. We all know, like Niagara Falls,
Tarzan: Of course. Yeah. So it’s a really beautiful region I lived for about a decade in Montreal, and I thought it was the coolest place in the world and nowhere else could ever live up to it. And then I came here and it’s just amazing region it grows we have like it’s a grape growing region. So we have a lot of really nice wines and with the wineries comes beautiful food like I live in farm country so I can drive down the street and get like fresh meat and eggs. It’s just like a foodies dream it’s a great place to live.
Erno: And it sounds like a healthy place as well i think so yeah so when you have grapes that means you have a lot of sun.
Tarzan: Yes in the summertime we have a lot of sun and yeah I guess all your we have lots of sun yeah for sure I mean it’s cold but we also have a swine in the winter which is wonderful some of my friends when when we were younger I never did this but they would go ice wine picking like in the middle of winter when the there’s like a really specific time of year I think it’s after the first frost and it has to get down to a certain temperature and then you go out and you pick frozen grapes for the ice wine harvest it’s a nice tradition
Erno: So so I’m going to be talking with you about how you got to where you are now and separately because the wire a freelancer and we’ve I’ve invited you to this chat too because of Joel he mentioned you and well as one of his freelance of friends that makes let’s make enough money from freelance and it was it was after we talked, I talked to Joe on Twitter about an article that was there and saying that freelancers just have a terrible life and don’t make enough money and it’s just you shouldn’t do this and you’ll just didn’t agree and I said Well it’s interesting story let’s talk about that. So you are also a like Joe into copywriting.
Tarzan: Mm hmm. Yes. So I do copywriting and I also do launch strategy because all of the copywriting I do is for online course launches sometimes masterminds or events but mostly it’s for selling information products.
Erno: so they are exactly is already something that’s really interesting because then you you just don’t do copywriting, copywriting for a specific purpose.
Tarzan: Yes, and I definitely will consciously turn away people that are doing something that’s not in my wheelhouse. Like I have a lot of expertise in launching. And part of that because I’ve done like a lot of client launches but I’ve also done my own launches so I feel really confident talking about that and strategizing about that but anything else anything that’s too far outside my area of expertise I don’t know how to charge for it and I I’m pretty expensive so that’s why and I’m able to command a higher price because I have expertise in this particular niche.
Erno: Yeah, no, no just expertise he has of course also the accolides so that people the prove that you are really good at copywriting for launches.
Tarzan: Yeah, definitely. But I think some people that want to get into launches they think that in order to charge a lot or be known in the industry that they have to have they have to have really great testimonials they have to have that magic testimonial from someone that says like I got a 50% show up rate to my webinar and a 10% conversion and I made $400,000 on my course launch. and I was charging thousands per day long before it any of those testimonials so I just want to be clear because that’s one of those sort of I guess it’s kind of an excuse that we make for like why we can’t raise our prices or why we can’t like be seen as an expert and it’s simply not true.
Erno: Good point good point so then let’s just step a little bit back because I don’t think it’s I read your stuff that you started out with this focus right away.
Tarzan: Yeah, I started out just doing whatever like most copywriters I did blog post I did social media updates, I quickly found that I strongly dislike both those things, the social media updates in particular. And then blog posts soon after I realized that when I was doing blog posts that and it’s not high value enough, like people see it as just implementation, there’s not too much strategy will tip there’s not a lot of strategy that goes into blog posts. And people just want to, they just sort of want to, like, do this, so I don’t have to do it. And it’s so far from the bottom of the funnel that you can’t really show like, Look, I created this amazing blog posts. Now this person’s banking six figures a month or something, right. So , I got away from that very quickly and closer to that bottom of funnel stuff. So and that’s what led me to doing emails and sales pages in between for a little while I did websites and I think websites are so important. But they’re not like I haven’t chosen to specialize in them. I think that’s a whole specialty itself. So I kind of I haven’t really touched those. I only do those for existing clients that are like, Hey, you did a great job with this, you know, my brand, can you help me with my website? And even in that case, I would I don’t do it like a full website right from scratch, it would just be like, hey, book me for a day. And we’ll like clean up some of these pages.
Erno: So two things. Um, you mentioned the bottom of the funnel, that means the part where the conversion really happens.
Tarzan: Precisely. Yeah, so the bottom of the funnel is like right before the customer is about to hand over some money. So that’s where I’ve chosen to focus because it’s so clear. Like, you can see, for example, I wrote a sequence for a client last week. And it was a promo sequence for a really inexpensive product. But she had a big list, and I wrote five emails to sell this product, and she could see exactly where the sales were coming from. So each day, she would say, she would, she would email me and say, like, Oh, we got 100 sales from that last email. And then the next day, like, we got that so many hundred sales. Now we’re at this and she can see like, okay, she’s tracking her data. So she can see who clicked over from Instagram, where she has a lot of followers. And, and then she can see people who clicked over from her email. So that’s really very tangible. And in the case of like, let’s say, it’s a sales page, like, it’s if I wrote that sales page, and they can compare it to, well, the last launch read this sales page. And this is the difference in the conversion rate. So if you can, if you can get to that point, whatever it is, whether it’s copywriting, or you’re working on something else, like the closer you can get to the exchange of money, the more you can charge for it.
Erno: Smart, so and also the thing is, you talk about this when a client requests a special request with you saying that, you know, you want to do something about the website that has something to do with the client. But that’s not something you list on your products or services on your website.
Tarzan: No, I don’t. And in fact, I’ve just I’m just done a full rebranding completely rewritten my website which i’m i’m not sure i don’t think it will be live by the time this podcast is live. But soon it’ll be live by the end by the end of November, I hope but
I focused Yeah, like there’s no mention of websites. I actually only sell my services by the day right now. So I do one hour and a half day or a full day but all of my testimonials they’re very specific to like I talked about things like what webinars show up sequences or like, you know, Tarzan wrote this email sequence for me so like all the signals there say launch copy and I even have written so into like, my new logo says Tarzan Kay, and underneath, it says launch strategist and copywriter. So I’m putting the launch strategy First, the copywriting is like, Well, yes, I do that because that’s part of it. But I’m positioning myself as a launch strategist website, or really far from that, like people have successful launches without even having a website.
Erno: Right. And launch strategies. That means that keep talk declines, you help them through everything about the launch.
Tarzan: Yeah, so we do like launch a lot of launch planning, we’ll talk about the tagging strategy. So I do a lot of email. So we’ll talk about the tagging strategy that goes along with email will plan which sequences they need. And, and that strategy that is the most high value thing I have to offer. And people think they’re coming to me for copywriting, which they are. But in fact, the reason that they choose me over another copywriter is because I bring a ton of strategy to the table. And that’s what I’m putting, like, that’s the foot that I’m putting forward, I’m not really talking about like this copy, or that copy, we’re talking about the big picture of the launch.
Erno:So that means that you, you write the emails mostly, but also you write the sales page.
Tarzan: So there was a time when I would have written the whole thing like that all the emails and the sales page. But currently, I mostly work actually 100%, I only work by the day. So often, when a client comes to me, they have a pre existing funnel, and I will look at their sales funnel. And I’ll say, Okay, let’s spend a day and punching up the sales page, making it a little more conversion friendly, was maybe spend another day and I’ll write some of these emails. And maybe I’ll look at things like their checkout page or their reg page for the webinar and make some recommendations.
Erno: Right. Understood. So that and once you see the charge for the day, so once a day is over, the work for the client is done.
Tarzan: Yeah, and there are technically no deliverables. So in the contract, it’s very clear that there’s no deliverables. So even if they hire me to write an email sequence. And that’s what I’m working on for the day. If I don’t finish the email sequence, I’m not working on it the next day, like I’m very clear about that. And we’re planning this email sequence there’ll be if I probably won’t get to all the emails, but there will be a clear outline for the ones that I haven’t written. And I will write the most important ones, like your cart, clothes and your cart, open email, things like that. But I don’t there’s no solid like finished product. I don’t even do proofreading. I sometimes I do proofreading if I just feel like throwing it in. But for the most part, like it’s a done with you style service. So it’s not they’re not i’m not handing them something that they can just hand off to their VA to upload to infusions off at all.
Erno: So and who is your client in general?
Tarzan: So the client will be the person who is offering an online course
Erno: that’s it?
Tarzan: Yeah. Does that. Does that make sense? What do you mean?
Erno: I mean, is it is it? Is it mostly one person businesses? It’s bigger businesses? Is it be to be Yeah, what do you have any definitions
Tarzan: Sure, for sure. Yes, thank you. I just assume everyone knows everything about me already. I’m totally fine. So my client is creating an online course they sort of fit the definition of solo printer. And they may indeed be on their own with like a VA, or an OBM.
But typically they have a bit of a team. So some of them have full time people on their team. Some of them have a few contractors and some part time people they’re usually a personal brand so you know, whatever, their businesses like Amy Porterfield, it’s Amy Porterfield. She’s the business but she has employees. So I’m working with her. And that’s the type of client that I serve their often in personal development or business development. So that helps because I have a lot of expertise like in that industry. Like, I know, for example, in personal development, like I know, okay, you know, like everybody’s saying it this way, these are like, some cliche phrases that you’re going to really want to use, like, let’s talk about what makes you different, and how we can position your course in a way that’s different.
So that helps that not only do I have this online course niche, also, I have a niche within a niche.
Erno: Right. So so your niche its a niche in a niche, but it’s also it is very common, that personal with this personal brand,
either have a online course or are building online course to Yeah, sell more.
Tarzan: Yeah, so they’re building an online course. Or maybe they want to sell it before they build it, I definitely encourage them to do that. And in some cases, they could be launching a mastermind or doing some sort of group live training program. But it is like selling information and coaching.
Erno: I’m just not sure if I understand correctly, said you sell it and then build it or was it or other way around?
Tarzan: Yeah, so oftentimes, like that, what people and many of my clients or people who would like to be my class, they put the focus on building their online course. And what happens is like, they’ve built the online course, which is an enormous amount of work, but they haven’t tested it, they’re not sure if it’s going to sell. And now, and this is the really difficult part. Now, they play so much expectations on this course, they’re like, I put all this work into it, I want it to perform for me, I want it to earn money for me. And when you go into a launch with that attitude, it’s like, it’s really it’s heavy, it’s heavy, what I recommend that they do is actually sell the course and then create it. So for example, like, actually, like I’m running a mastermind right now. And it’s about email copywriting. It’s called email stars. So I ran a webinar about email. And then I sold this 12 week program, it’s a group program, it’s live. And it’s with me, and I am creating it each week. So I actually have a training today at three o’clock, I worked on it on Friday, and I’m delivering it today. And so instead of like taking a whole month off, say, in August, and creating this whole thing, and then hoping it’s going to sell, I sold it first. And I felt a lot better. Like, I’m really enjoying creating this training now, because I feel really well compensated, it’s sold very well. And I also really want to deliver for these people that paid me a few thousand dollars to be in the program. And so I think that model is much better. And now I have the training created. So launch it as a mastermind at all the training and there’s just a lot of good arguments. And in the case where it doesn’t sell, which happens often with an online course. And then you just don’t have it, you can try something else.
Erno: No, I agree. I did the same advice I give people when we talk about doing an online course or program, they think about building the go into, you know, hibernation, and just build this thing, and then have the big thing ready,
hold on, I think it’s spies, when you have clients now, or we meet people try to sell the thing, yes, once you’ve sold it first. And, you know, okay, there was really a need for what you’re trying to do. And second, you can build it with them together. So So, you know, if you can, you can probe and test and see what they like, what they don’t like, you don’t have to have the whole thing ready. Just, you know, it might be a lot better when you do it together with the people that you sold it to,
Tarzan: Oh, totally. And then you can like I’m noticing where there’s gaps in the training that I had planned to deliver. And I’m also noticing where the order was off, like, for example, the way I planned this email training, I was like, Well, of course, we’re going to start with the offer, we’re going to start with your free offer. And then we’re going to talk about welcome sequences. And then we’re going to go from there, what I found is that a lot of the people that signed up how to dormant email list or list that they hadn’t scrubbed in a really long time. So the second training was all about list, reengagement and list scrubbing. Because they really needed that like, right away before they even bother writing a welcome sequence. So those are the kinds of things that when you run a program, like you’re getting live feedback, instead of having to re record the whole thing after running it, and you, you can actually tweak it as you’re creating it
Erno: Agree. And then the next time you you relaunch it, it can be even higher price and be better
Tarzan: For sure. Yeah, for sure. Totally.
Erno: So this is very clear, how have you set this up? And how this running now,
how did you stumble into this way of working ? Why did you choose at some point to go for this and to build your online training course and to choose these clients to choose this tip type of client, these type of how does this work?
Tarzan: That’s a great question. Because it the process felt very natural that something I just sort of eased into it, but I got my so I I sort of noodle around with freelancing for a couple of years, and I never really made any money, nothing significant, not really even enough to support myself. But, you know, I was young and I was traveling and I didn’t need much. So I just sort of, you know, did a little blogging here and there. But then a couple of years ago, coming up on three years ago, and I had a what, four years ago, I had a child and then I had this one year old child and my partner and I decided that I would like take my business full time and run it like a real business and he would be a full time stay at home dad. So for the first time in my life, I had an actual incentive to you make money and actually an imperative to make money, I had to make it successful. So shortly after then I enrolled in B school and that program was really really instrumental in the super fast growth of my business. And after B school I started I really sort of developed started developing products for that student because I noticed a lot of B schoolers wanted to work with me so I started developing things that they seem to want and and other and after that I started signing up for other online courses and shortly after that I signed up for Amy Porterfield courses that convert and people in these online courses in these Facebook groups were booking me and a I was like wow, this is a really cool way to get clients and in fact for a long time it was the only way I was getting clients that’s how I was being visible and and people were getting to know me finding me in those groups and I saw that there was a need for sales pages and I started with sales pages and added emails later and and so I I chose to focus on that and make that my thing shortly after and let’s say about six or seven months into me being a true business owner I did this email copywriting challenge so copy hackers and they have a course it’s a great course called 10 x emails and I didn’t know much about emails and but as a launch as part of the launch and to generate buzz for this course they had this email copywriting competition. And it was like a three day thing. And they gave you assignments, and then people had to vote for you. I think it was hosted on
Oh,im forgetting. And so I won that competition. Well, and in that competition, I got a lot of visibility. And then as the prize I got, they gave me this program, 10 x emails, which is a great program. And I got some good training. I already had good skill at email. But I didn’t have a lot of I didn’t have any formal training. I didn’t really know what I was doing. I didn’t have strategy. But I had some inherent just talent. And so and so together with like, people starting to see my name and know me for email, and then getting some training and also having some natural talent. I really started to focus on email. And today, so that was a year and a half ago. Now, what people mostly come to me for what I’m most known for is definitely email, right. But it’s been a natural progression. Hmm.
Erno: So you’ve been in vehicle vehicle is the program by Murray folio? Yeah, it’s, it’s also known in the Netherlands, so people that listen properly as well. And what I’ve heard
before is that people that B school, find declines in the people that followed the school. So that’s Yeah, that’s an interesting conclusion.
One, when I when you look back at the day rates that you had, because you’ve been working with the rich for a long time now, no, I have a question for that.
Because in B school, when you follow this was at the moment that you choose
to work with these people, because they there was a need, and they they, they weren’t a Facebook group. And so it was like an arm like a
Tarzan: Yeah, so one thing that’s not that’s rarely talked about, like, people join the school for the training. And the training is excellent. Like, I really give, I promote the program. So full disclosure, and it’s a wonderful program. But the community is a huge, I would say, half the value comes from just being part of the community because it’s very connected. And until then, like, I didn’t feel like I had a community online. When I was working at home by myself, I felt really isolated. And when I joined the school, I was like, Wow, it was such an eye opener. Like, look, there’s this whole community of people that are like me, like, they’re into personal development. Like, they’re kind of, you know, they’re into, like, freaky stuff. But they’re also like, running an online business. And it’s, like, largely female. And I just, I felt really like those, that was my tribe. And then on top of it, they started to come to me for copy. And they’re people like that I like as well, I must enjoy working with these people. So I, I definitely, I really pulled on that thread. And it worked. Because today, like my clients, I love them. I feel like they’re my friends. I truly want to see them be successful. Like, you know, we, we are, you know, we chat on like WhatsApp for fun. Because we just, like love each other. And that’s the best. Like, when you get those kinds of clients. And it becomes so much your business becomes so much more valuable than just the money maker. It’s like, well, this is also my community and a place where I really feel seen and loved.
Erno: I think I think more than a percent agree with you, because I think it is all about
love for the client. So, so love with the client love for the client, it is all about love.
Tarzan: Mm hmm. Totally, totally. Oh, man. And that really changes the energy of your business when you when you’re like, getting all this love from your clients. And you’re giving it back and it makes like, the the financial side of your business flow a lot better.
Erno: Okay, this entry point because we talked about love for clients. And I also think that this could be especially for freelancers, but also for female freelancers, is that you have this, you have this really tight relationship with the client, they love you, you love them. And it’s, it’s like you said, beautiful community, beautiful, it’s your tribe, and then you talk about pricing suddenly put them so you have to you have to bring up this topic that it’s very difficult. Yeah, how do you do that.
Tarzan: So I’m, I’m really very conscious about cleaning up my energy and my vibe around money. And because I find wherever I’m at is like, that’s the type of client I attract. So just like as an example, this this one client of mine have, we had this conversation the other day, and she was like, I love paying my invoices. Like I attract such great people. And like, it’s just my absolute pleasure to pay them. And I feel that way about the people that I hire to, like, I love paying my designer. I love paying my business manager. Like they these people play such a key role, like, I’m happy to spread money around. And I also see in the money conversation like I see so clearly that I mean, this sounds cliche, but it’s so true like that you get what you pay for. So when someone comes to me and says, like, okay, I’ll do this service for you for $500 when I know that someone else is offering it for $5,000 I’m like okay, well there’s going to be a trade off here for sure. And and my clients understand that to like, they come to me first. For one thing, my pricing is all over my website and my new
my new website it’s even more clear like I only do day rate years the cost right now it’s $3,000 a day it’s written all over. So actually when they come to that conversation, they know what my prices and they don’t know if I’m going to say like, Hey, you should actually Book Three days but I definitely price check them. But the most important thing is like I have good energy around money and they also they usually do to every so often someone will hire me and it’s a huge financial stretch for them. And that’s not like the ideal client for me if they are in like that sort of desperation mode. I I don’t want them I will tell them like maybe hire like I will refer them to someone who’s less expensive or else I will recommend like hey, maybe you need to do actually some some clearing around like this weird energy like when people are in like desperation mode, and they’re like, Oh my god, I need this thing to sell because I bought all these programs and did all this coaching. And like Tarzan. Can you help me with the sales copy? So this thing sells and like whoa, no. Actually there’s some different work that needs to go on. Because copywriting like one of my friends, my friend Merrill Krigsman, she’s a wonderful copywriter she posted something on Facebook, I don’t remember the exact quote, but she was like, Great copy is like, our sales is like, 5% great copy. And like, 95% the energy that you bring to the sale. And I find that’s really, really true.
Erno: So when you started before, Pisco, what was it? David den?
Tarzan: I didn’t have a day, right. I, I had an hourly rate of when I first started my hourly rate. Okay, actually rewind, I actually got my start when I was traveling in Australia. And I was hired by an agency like for one day a week, and I was just paid minimum wage, which in Australia happens to be about $20 an hour. And when I got back to Canada, I was like, Okay, well, now I’m a freelancer. So I should charge a little more, and I raised my rate to $35. And then when I started B school, I raised my rate to $45, which I thought was pretty baller, but I actually haven’t done the math. And I mean, I don’t think I don’t think you’re going to live very well as a freelancer on $45 an hour. But I didn’t understand that, you know, half at least half of my week is going to be spent marketing, maybe one half is going to be spent on client work. Like at most, maybe you have 20 hours of client work per week. And that would be a lot of client work. And then I think one thing that people one way that freelancers sort of shoot themselves in the foot is like, they will forwards calculate their income. And they’ll be like, okay, so I’m charging $100 an hour. And then that means maybe I could make a can do 20 hours a week. So $2,000 a week. Like, that sounds pretty great. But it the math just never works out that way. I have found
Erno: so what I think you won’t even do 20 will say like, what if I do like 40 hours a week?
Tarzan: Yes, of course. Yeah. For one thing, you always think you can do way more hours, then you can’t. And you can’t. So what I did, and this like this helps the day. Right? strategy kind of helps with this is I decided I calculate backwards like, okay, let’s say I’m just for you. Just to make it easy. Let’s say I want to earn $240,000 a year. Therefore, I need to make $20,000 a month for one thing. That’s gross. We that’s a whole nother conversation. gross revenue versus net profit. But just for the ease of conversation, can you turn 20,000 a month, therefore, that’s 5000 a week. And if I can only do two client days will then I need to be charging 2500 per day. And then I only myself I only work four days a week. So that’s how the math would work out for me. And to me, like that way of pricing our services works a lot better. And of course, the value of your offer has to match the price. But if you go backwards, instead of just saying like, I will do anything for $100 an hour, no. Okay, so now I need to earn 20, $500 a day. So I need to create a day rate offer that actually gives 20, $500 worth of value. And that’s like this my starting point for creating an offer. So the same thing goes for like creating a course or whatever went on pricing something if I’m deciding, like, I do a lot of affiliate marketing. So and if I’m going to promote someone else’s course. I also know like, whatever my number is, and let’s say I’m promoting a course. And that’s what I’m doing for the month of October, will that promotion better do $20,000 and if I don’t think it can do $20,000, then I’m not going to promote that course.
Erno: couple of things that come to my mind now is do you do you increase your day rate on a regular basis?
Tarzan: Yes. So I started and when I first started it was about six to eight months after school after the email copywriting thing competition that I won, I, I put up a day rate for $1,000 on my website. And during that in the next couple months, I booked like maybe two. And then earlier on the The following year, I had I got sort of a cup bit of experience, I bumped it up to 1500, I got a bit more experience. And I continuously bumped it up as I understood the value of the offer. And now like it to be honest, it was more difficult to sell it at 1000, then it was at now it’s 3000. And I can sell it without even getting on a sales call. I am so behind the value of that offer. Like I understand it completely. Anyone who gets on the phone with me, like Watch out. Because if I think that you need that, like I’m going to sell you on it for sure. And so that’s probably an indicator that I should raise the price. But um, I think this is important to note. Like, I still get scared about raising my prices. I feel uncomfortable as like as much as a new Freelancer feels uncomfortable raising her rate from $35 to $50. I feel just as uncomfortable going from 3000 to 3500 or 4000
Erno:Yeah, and that’s that’s kind of it sounds strange, because you you’ve raised it from 1000 to 3000 in just two and a half years. And now. So why are you still afraid?
Why are we still afraid? Because you yourself, right? You’ve proven that higher day rate works for you. You still get enough clients, you get plenty plans. Yeah. Instead, you are selling it easier than you did when you had a dairy was alone. So why is why is it still difficult?
Tarzan: That’s interesting. That is a really good question. I think it’s probably just like, it’s a survival instinct that we all have. It’s like, well, what if people won’t pay it? What if they say no? What if I don’t have any clients anymore. And to be honest, all of those things are completely false. Because my the non client like if the client side of my business completely disappeared, the teaching side of my business would provide a more than comfortable income. So it’s in a completely irrational fear. But for some reason, it’s still there. One thing and I really like I am really committed to delivering the value for the client. So even though I could probably sell tomorrow, I can start selling a day rate for 5000. I’m I’m may perhaps it’s because I’m not fully sure that I can deliver $5,000 of value and I don’t know four or I could do four Yes, probably could yet. And but I think it’s really important to maintain the integrity of your pricing. Like just because you can charge X amount of dollars per hour doesn’t mean that you should and so maybe, but perhaps that’s just an excuse. Maybe that’s just like mind
Erno: it’s it sounds like an excuse. I don’t want to put you on the spot here.
because because people that charge $100 they say no, I don’t want to try something more. Because I want to help these people that don’t have money and they have excuses right?
Tarzan Such such bs totally agree.
Erno: agree. But it’s to say it so it sounds to me that the excuses Indian actually don’t really stop. They they continue to survive in your mind. Yes,
Tarzan: yes, they do. Yeah. And I think that’s important to know. Because I think when whether no matter where you are, but particularly when you’re first starting out, you kind of think like, Well, when I get a certain amount of experience, then it will be easy to raise my prices are like, then someone’s going to magically like give me permission to charge a certain amount like that never happens. You continuously have to like get a little bit uncomfortable and put a price in front of the client that feels like a bit like ooh, I don’t know. I don’t think that goes away. And actually, I think if you don’t feel a little bit of fear, that’s probably a sign that something’s not right. I recently was I spoke at Amy Porterfield doesn’t event each year for her her B school the people those who sign up to be school through her and and it’s a wonderful event. And I spoke at this event, and it was my first time speaking in front of an audience like that. I was really well prepared. But I was also really nervous
400 people. Wow, wow. Yeah. Yeah. And so I and I was sitting at a table with some other wonderful people. And, and someone said to me, you know, like, if you weren’t nervous, like some, I would think something’s probably wrong there. I was like, Oh, yeah, I was really grateful that someone reframed that, for me that actually being nervous is a good thing. Like, that’s sort of, that’s kind of a compass. Like, oh, okay, maybe going that direction.
Erno: Yeah, I agree. So, so I just got, um, I think in the last two, three, couple conversations, a great idea, and which I want to share with you. And the people that are listening is I’ve put in my calendar, it’s not really by the time you’re listening to this, I have put in my calendar, that’s a good way to put it every six months, a bell goes off that I need to raise my prices. And I have talked to 100 person Peter in the podcast as well. He told me, he raises his price. Every four months, I’ve talked to a lady that I’ve worked at, that I’ve worked with in the past lot. And she says, every six months, I’m raising my prices, and I think you did, that is a great way to do this, it is just put it in the corner that every six months, you’re raising your price with whatever presented to raising that that’s not really important. The fact that you’re raising them, that’s the that’s the important because, like you said, There is nobody gonna you know, give you some magical sign that now it is time to raise your prices. No, it’s not going to happen. It just you need to just need to do it.
And Peter says, Well, if if I’m if I did it wrong. So there’s a good signal when three people that are taught to and I don’t go into, they don’t sign up with me. And probably then the offer is, the price was too high. So I will just go back to my original price on my previous price. And then after, you know, four months again, I will raise it again and see what happens, then
I think that is just a great way of you doing this and raising your price continuously because you are improving yourself knowledge expertise, also continuing. So why not value that as well.
Tarzan: Yeah, I agree. I agree. That’s it’s so important. And particularly when you’re just starting out and your rates are low, you have to get in the habit of raising them regularly. Another thing that’s important for new freelancers with low prices and to know is people will judge you based on your prices. So people see that my price is $3,000 a day and they say Oh, she must be really good. And conversely, and I am Yeah, I’m really good and I can charge that and but conversely, like if I see someone that charging like if maybe they’re a copywriter and they’re if they’re charging hourly rate for one thing, I don’t take them very seriously. But let’s say they quote a project really low like I’m like, Okay, well, you’re a beginner. So I’ll try this. And let’s see what happens. Hmm. So that’s another reason like it’s so important that your price reflects your level of expertise, because that’s people you’re sending a signal out there I sent, I just listened to a episode of Seth Golden’s podcast akimbo and it’s about signaling,
right. And so I was so good, I wish Yeah, I wish he had given more examples, you should link to it in your show notes. And I thought about how this is so important. For freelancers, we’re sending so many signals without realizing it. And the way you price or services is one of the most important ones. And it’s also the easiest one to just change and see if that signal attracts a better client.
Erno: I couldn’t agree more and just making sure that I don’t forget this ,signaling. So
Tarzan: yeah, there’s one more thing that I want to say about that is there’s so much competition like with I think this is true of freelancers in general, but a freelance copywriters it’s definitely true that there is a ton of competition in the 50 to $150 an hour range, a lot of competition, and where I am now there is very little, like precious little competition. I don’t know, too many people that I could just refer to. And that would be like, able to provide the level of service that I do. And that would be like similarly priced, and maybe available. Like there’s very little competition. So that’s another reason to raise your prices and get to a point where you can really deliver at a high level,
Erno: right, so you’ve created like a blue ocean?
Tarzan: Yes, precisely. Yeah.
Erno: So during the competition, you talked about, like, three to four income streams.
So you do client work on a daily basis, and you have your courses and you affiliate promotions, is there anything more that I didn’t…?
Tarzan: So yeah, that’s a basic and client work. By the way, I go back and forth sometimes like, and I tell my assistant that I just want one day and a half a day and a half per week of client work. Sometimes, like last week, I had no client work this week, I also have none. And that feels really lush and spacious for me. And so right now, I’m sort of like, I’m not pursuing that very aggressively. But other times, I’ll do more. So that’s an important income stream that’s maybe I’m I’m guessing here all know my numbers, because my financial year just ended. But let’s say that 50%, I’m going to say 40%, and then affiliate marketing as in promoting other people’s courses. That’s probably another 40% who now I’m forget these percentages, it’s I’m guessing. Then I have my online courses, and I am my online courses. And I also have my mastermind. So my mastermind was hugely profitable, and a big part of my income. But I also but that’s like a live thing that I have to show up and deliver. I also have just things that are sold passively. Like I have live workshops on my website, I have one called day rate superstar, it’s about how to sell it a day, right, I have another one called get paid in USD. It’s for Canadians who charging US dollars. And those just sit on my website and generate income without me doing anything. They don’t even have sales funnels attached to them. But they do sell for me. And then the fourth, and this is small, but it’s growing. And I also have software that I’m an affiliate for. So that’s like, that’s small. But as my aunt right now, I have a small audience. So like, my income card comes from large, like big ticket items. But I am growing my audience, especially with the new website, it has a top of final quiz, it’s going to grow like crazy. And then that last stream of software, and that will definitely grow as a larger chunk of my income. I think that’s it, though.
Erno:Well, so how, how big is your list to get an idea.
Tarzan: So I have a few thousand people right now, it goes up and down. And let’s say like, between three and 5000, and I scrub my list really regularly. So I make sure like, if you haven’t opened my emails, like, you know, you’re getting you’re getting the boot. So I keep it really clean. And I don’t do I haven’t done a lot of media buying like I have, I occasionally do a Facebook campaign and grow my list a little bit. But most of that is organic. And I have a really good relationship with my list. Like, they like we’re like, you know, we’re tight. So that’s why I’m able to earn like a really great great income with a small list. But once I get the new website running, and then I will be growing it much, much faster. And that will be a different kind of business. Because, of course, like when you have 30,000 people instead of 3000 people, like you can’t do as much like personal back and forth. Like oftentimes, you know, when my phone dings, and it says, like, so. And so bought a program, I’m like, Oh, yeah, I think I recommend be selling courses. When I first my I only had 750 people on my list. And I think I made I don’t know, maybe $15,000 or something. It was my first launch. So I was really happy with that. And I had him all that.
Erno: Hmm. So so I’m going to end this conversation. But I just you in your
one of your posts, you mentioned three things that had the biggest impact on where you are now,what is what is the most important things that got you where you are today?
Tarzan: And I wish you could tell with those three things.
Erno: I can I read them down. So that’s okay. Number one was getting in front of people. And I had a question about that. But you’ve already answered because I was wondering, because I’ve looked at your social media following and everything that’s that’s pretty low, super low. I was wondering where you how you got in front of those people. But I understand now, because you were in the Facebook groups
where you got most of your, you know, your data to connect with, and it was positioning itself like a superstar even when I learned one. So I like that too, because you did that with the pricing. We talked about a two and then and a third, of course, which I think comes with the second one is delivering a top tier service. Because if you cannot charge us house prices, and you know, presenting yourself in this way. If If you don’t deliver any and you have to deliver and make sure that you give the value that you promised the people
yeah, I liked another quote that you mentioned it is get the money in the door, and you can get … later/
Tarzan: totally so many people forget that. And that’s like one of those. That’s an example like people who build out a whole online course and like this intricate back and it’s like, No, really, you just need to, like, book a couple clients and get the money in the door. And, but thank you for reading me that list because I I know now, like those three things were really important. And I’m pretty certain what’s getting me to the next level is speaking in front of audiences, and really getting my body in front of other people’s bodies, like in the same room. And I noticed, and this was really surprising. And after speaking at any Porterfield event that so many of those people who had never heard of me before, we’re more than willing to book a couple days for $3,000, some of them joined my mastermind, which is 3500 or 6500, depending which tier you bought. So it’s like, that really blew my mind like, because most people that buy my courses and stuff and or book me like they’ve been on my list. I’ve been nurturing them for a long time. And I was really blown away by how much more ready people were to invest not knowing me very long, but because they had seen me on stage and like are they had, like, they just had so much confidence in my ability and what I can deliver. Oh,
Erno: it’s good tp. That’s a great tip. I’m like, thanks. Um, if you I’m not sure if you are a big reader.
Tarzan: Yes, I was more of a big reader before having children. But my husband will say that I always buried in a book for sure.
Erno: Okay, so so what is what is the book that you advise to most people to talk to, freelancers, and so on.
Tarzan: that’s really interesting. Um, think so I’m not going to tell you a business book I am I read right now. Particularly, I have put down business books intentionally because I felt like I saturating myself with information and I want I really want to run my business my way. And my way is like, it’s my way I it has to fit within four days, my four day work week, an eight hour seven to eight hour days. And a lot of what I read like, doesn’t fit that model. Like, for example, a book that I really love that I read this year was tools of Titans, by Tim Ferriss, and it’s a wonderful book, but it’s like super masculine. And 95% of the stuff that I there that is taught in that book is like, doesn’t it’s not the Tarzan way, and it’s not for me.
So I just want to encourage anyone like to build their business their own way like and yes, you can read books, and I read a beautiful book recently called the go giver. And you can read it and an afternoon, it’s about 80 pages and a little story about a powerful business idea. I’m just looking at my bookshelf, and it’s a wonderful book about, you know, your purpose for money and your purpose for being in business. I think that’s a wonderful read. And I like those types of books that aren’t like telling me what to do what technique to try and because I want to figure that out myself, and I want it to be my own way if you’re going to follow someone else’s business model. Well, like I hope you like their lifestyle, because that’s the lifestyle that comes with it.
Erno: So no, yeah, Bob Burg, is it right yeah, Bob Burg, the go giver. It’s a yes. Look, I love it.
Tarzan: Yeah, exactly. Great book.
Erno: Do you have anything you want to add? You want to say to the audience
Tarzan: This is been a really great interview I really enjoyed I really enjoyed answering your questions. It’s a real honor to be interviewed and to be looked upon as an expert I really value that
Erno: right thank you very much thousand K and it was great talking to you I love learning from you and wish you all the best
Tarzan: yeah thank you so much thanks for now
Erno is de Business Coach voor ondernemers met 5-25 medewerkers. Ik help ondernemers bij zelfzuchtige beslissingen voor meer vrijheid. Mijn unieke eigenschap is om lastige vragen te stellen en je richting actie te duwen. Erno is auteur van 8 boeken, 1000+ artikelen en host van de podcast de Erno Hannink Show. Lees meer over Erno